tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post8829580198934864495..comments2023-10-30T08:23:36.678+00:00Comments on Trying My Patients: Does The End Justify The Means?Ella Shawhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15379522083602755280noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-19045320446399624772013-04-24T18:36:39.171+01:002013-04-24T18:36:39.171+01:00If the officers hadn't taken any action, you&#...If the officers hadn't taken any action, you'd have needed crowd barriers to control the slimeball solicitors if hedid hurt himself. Headlines in Daily Fail, "my son / boyfriend / brother would be alive now if the police had taken him to hospital "<br />A no win situation Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-88148819853414331362013-03-07T08:19:14.288+00:002013-03-07T08:19:14.288+00:00So that's your excuse for breaking the law is ...So that's your excuse for breaking the law is it?twrchtrwythhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17540579614282653032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-76011672504116403522013-03-04T17:15:56.040+00:002013-03-04T17:15:56.040+00:00Bless your sectioned socks. Police are only ones w...Bless your sectioned socks. Police are only ones with 20% cuts, we are dealing with everything all the time. As a response cop I am literally a jack of all trades, master of none, sorry we aren't all mental health gurus but if you expect us to turn up at everything and be the expert then you need a check up from the neck up yourself. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-10747622858118193102013-03-04T17:11:39.617+00:002013-03-04T17:11:39.617+00:00What should we have done in todays case then? Offi...What should we have done in todays case then? Officers didn't section and she walked out and killed someone. Now cops are slated for not detaining. Also she was diagnosed with a personality disorder so where I work she would not have been admitted anyway, 136 or not. <br /> I'm not sticking up for cops just because I'm a fed rep I have to do this stuff everyday myself. We are mainly doing the job of mental health practitioners in a very imperfect system and always trying our best. I get annoyed when people think we just stomp in with our jackboots and bang people up for jollies. We are damned whatever happens. If the NHS and community health teams did their bit they wouldn't have to rely on us to fill the gaps and we might actually get to fight some crime. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-37729504844243969212013-03-03T22:42:56.114+00:002013-03-03T22:42:56.114+00:00Well put.
Police wading into a healthcare situat...Well put. <br /><br />Police wading into a healthcare situation and illegally arresting someone is not helpful. It is not "doing the wrong thing for the right reasons". It is just making things worse. @Sectioned_http://www.sectioneduk.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-42296628785316518102013-03-03T22:38:19.882+00:002013-03-03T22:38:19.882+00:00I know this is a blog and no Patient Identifable i...I know this is a blog and no Patient Identifable information is disclosed but is this right I ask myselfAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-82844791289602104772013-03-03T03:07:50.705+00:002013-03-03T03:07:50.705+00:00Entirely agree with comments from Sectioned_ - thi...Entirely agree with comments from Sectioned_ - this was an abuse of power and illegal, and what is left if the police don't follow the law? They are not accountable. Which is really bloody frightening. The police can do what they like as long as they can justify it, by lying if necessary. Sadly no, no-one believes a 'mental patient' (from bitter experience of complaining about the 'care', or lack thereof, from the mental health system. Not a bad experience, mostly bad experiences in a rotten system). Seeing comments on here from police who would rather cover themselves than follow the law...who cares what the effect on the person being illegably forcibly detained? Which is really traumatic. <br />People experiencing mental distress are still people. A few commenters on here seem to be forgetting that. Anonymous #1 (26 feb 11.08) and #2 (2 March 13.41) need to educate themselves about suicide, it is just not as simple as you either 'really' want to die or you don't. No-one *wants* to die - being a risk to yourself is *terrifying*, the tiny sane part of your brain wants to survive but the sick part tells you you don't deserve help.<br />Ian Hutchings - how do you know this person was 'winding you up' and genuinely didn'ty know the answers?<br />No-one, honestly, decides to make up being suicidal and phone 999, or do something in public that prompts others to call 999 for a laugh. They do this out of desperation and distress. It's not fun. By the time someone is in such a state, no they are not always nice or easy to deal with, but unless you've been there, don't judge. Been there, done that. Needed help, asked for it nicely, got turned away, tried again and again...left to deal with it...should never have got to the point where police and A&E got involved but it did. No wonder people feel ambivalent about 'help' if as I said earlier they feel that way anyway, and if that 'help' consists of forcing them to go somewhere they don't want to go, that is very intimidating and traumatic. The alternative to sectioning isn't leaving a person who may be vulnerable and a risk to themselves on their own - instead of the debate which as ella rightly says is playground level, 'You have to go' 'No, I don't want to' why not *ask why* he didn't wish to go to hospital and talk to him? Is he under the care of mental health services? If so, what has gone wrong (pretty clear something has, for him to be on a balcony saying he wants to jump). If someone can't be persuaded to go to hospital, and the police and paramedics don't feel they're an *immediate* risk but still feel concerned, they need to signpost to appropriate services (including Samaritans, local charities etc), refer to mental health services if necessary and make a plan with the person. <br />I do sympathise with police and ambulance staff lacking training in mental health...which is disgraceful really that more training isn't given. 1 in 4 people will experience mental health issues, so it's an unavoidable part of their work - as MentalHealthCop points out. However a lot of cases crisis could have been avoided if mental health services had done their job properly, if someone is under their 'care' there is no excuse for them ending up needing to call or come to the attention of emergency services.butterflywingshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16873407072604417252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-79127462605026117662013-03-02T21:06:55.718+00:002013-03-02T21:06:55.718+00:00This comment shows an utter lack of understanding ...This comment shows an utter lack of understanding of what it means to experience mental distress. This isn't a game. These are things people do when they are distressed. <br /><br />And, if you don't think that what you call "mental health jobs" are core police business, you are wrong and should perhaps evaluate just what you joined the police service for. <br /><br />Apart from anything else, the police are a 24/7 response service, so they are going to be on the front line of responding to out of hours crisis demand. Where people's safety is at risk or a crime has been committed, this is core police business. As Inspector Michael Brown (Twitter: @MentalHealthCop) says:<br /><br />"Policing exists to handle society’s “failure demand” and therefore it would be discriminatory to assume that we should exclude patients, their families and mental health issues from that."<br /><br />And, if you still don't think "mental health jobs" are core police business, I suggest you educate yourself by reading this post on the topic: <br /><br />http://mentalhealthcop.wordpress.com/2012/10/16/999-whats-your-emergency/<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />@Sectioned_http://www.sectioneduk.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-27134691203225782092013-03-02T20:50:59.668+00:002013-03-02T20:50:59.668+00:00Well said. Ambulance paramedic needs to go back to...Well said. Ambulance paramedic needs to go back to school and learn the basics of the Mental Capacity Act. @Sectioned_http://www.sectioneduk.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-1033992348620688122013-03-02T20:50:01.630+00:002013-03-02T20:50:01.630+00:00"Before people shout about human rights and p..."Before people shout about human rights and plasma screens ..."? As a fed rep, are you seriously condoning police making unlawful arrests to cover their own backsides?<br /><br />If you are, you are trivialising officers breaking the law and becoming criminals themselves. You are trivialising the unlawful arrest of someone who has committed no crime. You are trivialising subjecting someone who is in a vulnerable state to a highly stressful experience - instead of receiving health treatment, he got the opposite of what he needed to help with his mental distress.<br /><br />Maybe because you work with criminals and arrests all day you don't recognise the impact contact with police can have. Contact with police is not normal or usual for most of us. Restraint by police is not normal or usual for most of us. Arrest by police is nor normal or usual for most of us. Unlawful actions by the police are not normal or usual for most of us. Even at our best, most of us would find such experiences stressful. For someone experiencing mental distress, this is magnified. It was the wrong thing to do morally and, as Ella has pointed out, it was the wrong thing to do legally too.<br /><br />As a fed rep, it's understandable you're going to be defensive about the actions of officers you're representing. That's your job. But don't for one minute think that justifies police acting like criminals and traumatising a vulnerable person in his own home, denying him access to his own healthcare support. <br /><br />It's not a trivial matter, so please don't trivialise it.<br />@Sectioned_http://www.sectioneduk.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-91805094389889808632013-03-02T20:36:10.292+00:002013-03-02T20:36:10.292+00:00So when you say "if the rules weren't bro...So when you say "if the rules weren't broken" you really mean "if the police didn't make an unlawful arrest", right? And when you say "give me a bollocking" you really mean "sue my police force for unlawful arrest", right? <br /><br />We don't live in a police state. It is not acceptable for serving officers of the law to simply shrug and say they're going to break the law because there's a 1% chance they might be blamed. It's shocking to learn that a police officer is more worried about getting blamed for not acting than of breaking the law. <br /><br />Just because police are on scene does not mean that "something must be done" or that something must be done by the police in a healthcare situation. I hope you'll think twice about wading in with your size 10 boots into healthcare situations and carrying out unlawful arrests.<br /><br />@Sectioned_http://www.sectioneduk.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-82125503963295465362013-03-02T13:41:00.022+00:002013-03-02T13:41:00.022+00:00I have to say, if you don't want us coming rou...I have to say, if you don't want us coming round and scooping you up for a mental health assessment, don't go standing on bridges, high buildings or ringing up threatening to top yourselves. As a cop I would love that, I might even get time to deal with crime once in a while instead of spending endless shifts dealing with mental health jobs. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-49152025974469340352013-03-02T09:36:06.277+00:002013-03-02T09:36:06.277+00:00I know, it's very frustrating.I know, it's very frustrating.Ella Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15379522083602755280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-65310221167444174122013-03-02T09:35:44.414+00:002013-03-02T09:35:44.414+00:00I understand that but the sectioning laws are very...I understand that but the sectioning laws are very clear. Sometimes police and ambulance have to realise that not everyone can be helped.Ella Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15379522083602755280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-89106640759221994692013-03-02T09:35:03.745+00:002013-03-02T09:35:03.745+00:00He did not lack capacity. Capacity looks at the ab...He did not lack capacity. Capacity looks at the ability to make a clear, informed decision with all the facts available and ability to a) understand the information given b) retain it and c) explain in clear words why they don't agree with your proposed treatment. Suicidal does not mean lack of capacity. Capacity is nothing to do with rationale. He had his reasons and with a full mental capacity was legally free to do as he chose within his own house. There were no legal powers to remove. If you are a paramedic you should know the rules regarding capacity. Kidnapping in someones best interest would not protect you in an HCPC hearing if the patient was to complain. Capacity insists that less restrictive options are sought.Ella Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15379522083602755280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-21676799495908551942013-03-02T09:29:50.183+00:002013-03-02T09:29:50.183+00:00I want a flat screen TV!I want a flat screen TV!Ella Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15379522083602755280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-26821162630757622172013-03-02T09:24:07.878+00:002013-03-02T09:24:07.878+00:00Ah yes....that ideal world!Ah yes....that ideal world!Ella Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15379522083602755280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-61789275795607501482013-03-02T09:23:31.577+00:002013-03-02T09:23:31.577+00:00Yep.......still sitting here waiting!Yep.......still sitting here waiting!Ella Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15379522083602755280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-81901414150408370862013-03-02T09:22:16.840+00:002013-03-02T09:22:16.840+00:00Bi polar is a one of many mental health conditions...Bi polar is a one of many mental health conditions.Ella Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15379522083602755280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-63696092094558293492013-03-02T09:21:06.669+00:002013-03-02T09:21:06.669+00:00They need that down here!
They need that down here!<br />Ella Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15379522083602755280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-34834068717830718062013-03-02T09:18:44.961+00:002013-03-02T09:18:44.961+00:00There is the problem with the finger of blame. Or ...There is the problem with the finger of blame. Or the fear if the finger of blame!Ella Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15379522083602755280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-20265651748341165242013-03-02T09:13:30.688+00:002013-03-02T09:13:30.688+00:00Thank you! Sorry you had a bad experience!Thank you! Sorry you had a bad experience!Ella Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15379522083602755280noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-84156772781500823352013-03-02T07:36:05.145+00:002013-03-02T07:36:05.145+00:00Well done the police, the person obviously lacks c...Well done the police, the person obviously lacks capacity as on a daily basis in our 'normal' rationale, we all threaten to jump from a tower block and then run home pretending it has never happened don't we?? Clearly this person is in need of a Mental Health Assessment and I would feel I had failed the patient if I had deemed them to have capacity and let them stay at home. The justification is that you are acting in the patients best interests as they appear not to be of sound mind.....Ambulance Paramedicnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-72373560246576789352013-03-02T00:02:06.257+00:002013-03-02T00:02:06.257+00:00I agree with my colleague above. You must remember...I agree with my colleague above. You must remember that us cops that go to 999 jobs are constantly second guessed by higher ranks in warm dry control rooms who will demand that we get them to an AMHP for an assessment because if we walk away and then they kill themselves we get blamed for not doing enough. As a fed rep I am representing 2 colleagues for just that in an incident before Xmas. <br /> Before people shout about human rights and plasma screens don't forget all the cops are trying to do is get them to a professional medical person. Not like we're fitting them up for murder and sending them to prison. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4489565303994499222.post-8631895079240700492013-03-01T21:15:21.824+00:002013-03-01T21:15:21.824+00:00Having been in this situation many times as the of...Having been in this situation many times as the officer, if the rules weren't broken, and I've seen it many times, and a court order not obtained, he would've been left. He probably wouldn't have done anything to himself and this is the case in 99% of calls from the person threatening his own health, (my own statics on my own calls) but if he were the 1% that did, we would all be in the brown stuff. Give me a bollocking if it means the safety of the person is secured and we all keep our jobs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com